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nighthawk101
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:08 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
nighthawk101 wrote:Read again in Hewbrews when it talks about a new covenant through Christ.


Are you saying Jesus wasn't Jewish??
Jesus kept all of the Jewish festivals and laws. He was crucified with a sign stating he was "King of the Jews".
The Bible states that he came to preach to the Jews first, the Gentiles were second. He never said he was going to abolish the law but to fulfill it.


Not racially by any means. To be racially Jewish you must have Jewish blood, which He did not. He was simply implanted into a womb, who carried him. Mary's 23 chromosomes were not given to him.

He was jewish only by religion.

Yes, the Word was originally to the Jews, however, they rejected and killed their savior. It was after this rejection that the Gentiles received the gospel.
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Art Vandelay
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue May 23, 2006 5:12 pm

nighthawk101 wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
nighthawk101 wrote:Read again in Hewbrews when it talks about a new covenant through Christ.


Are you saying Jesus wasn't Jewish??
Jesus kept all of the Jewish festivals and laws. He was crucified with a sign stating he was "King of the Jews".
The Bible states that he came to preach to the Jews first, the Gentiles were second. He never said he was going to abolish the law but to fulfill it.


Not racially by any means. To be racially Jewish you must have Jewish blood, which He did not. He was simply implanted into a womb, who carried him. Mary's 23 chromosomes were not given to him.

He was jewish only by religion.

Yes, the Word was originally to the Jews, however, they rejected and killed their savior. It was after this rejection that the Gentiles received the gospel.


Why do you think God would put a Messiah in a Jewish girl's womb, then? If the Jews were so rejected, why would God bother to send the Messiah to deliver the message to them first?
Last edited by Art Vandelay on Tue May 23, 2006 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nighthawk101
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:13 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:He died because the Jews refused to believe the was the Messiah.


He died because they crucified Him

Art Vandelay wrote:He was observant of the Torah


Yes, again religiously a Jew. Keep in mind that essentially Christians are too as the Torah is simply the first 5 books of the Old Testamanet.

Art Vandelay wrote:Jesus's mother was Jewish, that makes him a Jew.


She carried Him, she did not deliver her 23 chromosomes.

Art Vandelay wrote:What makes you think is he not racially a Jew?

Again, read above

Art Vandelay wrote:The Christian relgion is an off-shoot from Judaism.


In essence. But, the two are very different. Considering the central tenet of Christianity was murdered because he was seen as a blasphemer.
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nighthawk101
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:13 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Why do you think God would put a Messiah in a Jewish girl's womb, then?


Jesus was originally sent to the Jews.... who in turned killed Him.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue May 23, 2006 5:16 pm

nighthawk101 wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
Why do you think God would put a Messiah in a Jewish girl's womb, then?


Jesus was originally sent to the Jews.... who in turned killed Him.


You didn't answer my questions.

Why would God send the Messiah via a Jewish girl's womb? Why not another race instead?

Why would God send the Messiah to the Jews first, knowing they would reject him??? Why wasn't Jesus' ministry just for the Gentiles then?
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nighthawk101
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:20 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:You didn't answer my questions.


But I did

Art Vandelay wrote:Why would God send the Messiah via a Jewish girl's womb? Why not another race instead?


I just answered this. Jesus was sent to the Jews... why not send him via a jewish girl?

Art Vandelay wrote:Why would God send the Messiah to the Jews first, knowing they would reject him??? Why wasn't Jesus' ministry just for the Gentiles then?


The Jews were the chosen people of God to receive the word and therefore Christ was sent to them. Why send Him only to be rejected? Hell, I dont know... I didnt make the decision. I simply know it happened. THe Jews DID reject Christ... and killed him.. because he was a blasphemer. IT was after this rejection that new covenant was made through Christ.
Last edited by nighthawk101 on Tue May 23, 2006 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:21 pm

If you would quit editing your messages after the fact and adding all new crap in... I would answer all of your inquiries in one post.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue May 23, 2006 5:48 pm

nighthawk101 wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:You didn't answer my questions.


But I did

Art Vandelay wrote:Why would God send the Messiah via a Jewish girl's womb? Why not another race instead?


I just answered this. Jesus was sent to the Jews... why not send him via a jewish girl?

Art Vandelay wrote:Why would God send the Messiah to the Jews first, knowing they would reject him??? Why wasn't Jesus' ministry just for the Gentiles then?




The Jews were the chosen people of God to receive the word and therefore Christ was sent to them. Why send Him only to be rejected? Hell, I dont know... I didnt make the decision. I simply know it happened. THe Jews DID reject Christ... and killed him.. because he was a blasphemer.


No, you didn't. Not really. You just said he was sent to the Jews.

My question is why would God (the God of the Christians) deliberately choose a Jewish girl to be the vessel to give birth to the Messiah if they were not his chosen people who he was trying to establish a new covenant with??? Why not just do it through a Gentile girl?

Why would God choose have the Messiah grow up in a Jewish household, be circumcised, raised by Jewish parents, having Jewish brothers and sisters, living in a Jewish community, taking part in Jewish traditions and religious festivals, reading from the torah, worshipping and teaching in a Jewish temple, performing miracles to Jews, had 12 Jewish disciples for friends, if God didn't care for the Jews?

But why would God choose to manifest himself in a Jewish girl?
Why would the Bible have long passages detailing the linage of Jesus if he genetically wasn't Jewish to some degree? If Jesus wasn't Jewish, why bother trace his roots back through the dozens of generations, including King David and Abraham?? The Bible traces it through Joseph, Jesus' father.

What would the purpose would that serve?
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:50 pm

Again.... you're not reading what I write. It was AFTER the Jews rejection of Christ that a new covenant was made. Hebrews is in the new testament. A covenant was made with the Jews in the Old Testament which they broke and God made a new one, through Christ.

Why trace it through Joseph? I dont know... it would be quite pointless, considering Mary was a virgin. He had nothing to do with the conception. Mary, truly didnt either... she was simply a vessel.
Last edited by nighthawk101 on Tue May 23, 2006 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue May 23, 2006 5:51 pm

Why would he be condemed to die on a cross with a placard above his head labled "King of the Jews" if he wasn't Jewish?
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:52 pm

Again... Jewish by religion, its not that difficult to understand.

You do realize that you can be racially Jewish and completely athiest.. as well as religiously jewish but be... african or something.
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nighthawk101
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 5:54 pm

But... I am confused at what point you are trying to establish.

That Jews were/are God's chosen people? They were and a covenant was made with them in the Old Testament. However, they broke that covenant and God makes a new covenant through Christ in Hebrews.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue May 23, 2006 6:15 pm

nighthawk101 wrote:Again.... you're not reading what I write. It was AFTER the Jews rejection of Christ that a new covenant was made. Hebrews is in the new testament.

Why trace it through Joseph? I dont know... it would be quite pointless, considering Mary was a virgin. He had nothing to do with the conception. Mary, truly didnt either... she was simply a vessel.


Replacement theology is fraught with errors and misleads a lot of people.

I know my Bible. Hebrews was written by a Jew, Saul (aka Paul of Tarsus) , for a Jewish audience. Funny you would bring that up. Paul's dad was a Roman citizen but his mom was Jewish, so that made him "Jewish". As he belonged to the tribe of Benjamin he was given at the time of his circumcision the name of Saul, which must have been common in that tribe in memory of the first king of the Jews
(Philippians 3:5). :lol:

Paul continued to observe Jewish laws despite the new covenant. He didn't abandon them, just told the Gentiles they didn't have to be physically circumcised to be grafted in to the faith.
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nighthawk101
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Postby nighthawk101 » Tue May 23, 2006 6:28 pm

Yes, Paul was a Jew by blood .....but a Christian by faith... whats your point?

Pauls writings are NOT for a jewish audience. THey are for a Christian audience.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Tue May 23, 2006 6:32 pm

nighthawk101 wrote:But... I am confused at what point you are trying to establish.

That Jews were/are God's chosen people? They were and a covenant was made with them in the Old Testament. However, they broke that covenant and God makes a new covenant through Christ in Hebrews.


You stated that the Jews the richest people despite being a very small population simply due to good money management skills and tribal affiliations. I disagreed and said it was God's covenant that kept them coming back time and time again despite persecution from various civilizations. You said Jesus wasn't Jewish. I say he is based on his heritage and the bibilical accounts of ministry and who he intended for originally. You insist that the book of Hebrews makes null and void whatever previous covenants were established and that the Jews are not part of God's plan anymore. I say that's misleading, otherwise, why will the Messiah establish his earthly kingdom in the new Jerusalem? Why would God re-establish his throne there if not to rule from the capital of the Judaic faith? Why not London, England?

Funny how much of the New Testament is written for Jews by Jews if it's not intended to convince them that Jesus was THE Jewish Messiah as fortold in Old Testament prophecy. If you don't believe that Jesus was/is Jewish, by your argument that genetically he's not, you would never covince a Jew that he is the Christ because according to the Jews, he has to be of Jewish descent from the house of David to be the true Messiah. If you don't believe the lineage of Jesus in the Bible is true, then Jesus is not the Messiah and that Christianity is a lie. End of argument.

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